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[00:38:51] <hahuang65> what's the hotline to call in emergencies?

[00:40:29] <StephenLynx> 911 i guess

[00:46:13] <Boomtime> hahuang65: if you have a support contract the phone numbers are shown on the /CS jira page

[00:46:21] <hahuang65> Boomtime: thanks, found it.

[10:46:28] <MidasVO> Hey everyone I have a silly question maybe someone can clarify something for me... How would I

[10:51:33] <MidasVO> testSet: { request: { type: Object}, test: { type: Object} },

[10:51:53] <MidasVO> Is that the proper way to define an array? Can I add multiple tests to that testset?

[10:52:24] <MidasVO> or should it be one deeper? like testSet -> test -> assertion, request

[10:52:41] <MidasVO> jeez why did i call assertions tests -.-

[10:55:17] <MidasVO> https://gist.github.com/midasvo/d81053d8f628d0d850ab#file-gistfile1-txt

[10:55:41] <MidasVO> I have it like that, is it logical that I can now create testSets

[10:56:29] <MidasVO> ugh really hard to describe what i mean but.. this model can have more than 1 test in it right? or do i need to do something special to make that possible?

[10:58:17] <MidasVO> or should i just make a new model called testSet and reference it?

[10:58:25] <MidasVO> jeez this is hard

[11:32:53] <the_voice_> Hi

[11:33:35] <the_voice_> I am now in my second week of mongo and I am coming from a mysql background

[11:34:59] <the_voice_> I have to say it is quiet the change.

[11:36:47] <the_voice_> One thing I am trying to understand is when is it best to embed documents or to use a reference

[11:38:13] <the_voice_> Anyone have some good reading material about the topic?

[17:11:43] <Lonesoldier728> hey not sure why this mongo error pops up ... http://pastebin.com/cesfPFRt am I querying that incorrectly some how?

[17:12:22] <Lonesoldier728> I am using mongoose, and the two ids are string values not sure if htat is a problem too

[17:13:29] <StephenLynx> the inc is outside the update block.

[17:13:34] <StephenLynx> aside from that

[17:13:37] <StephenLynx> mongoose is awful.

[17:13:45] <StephenLynx> and slow.

[17:13:54] <Lonesoldier728> How is it outside, it is within the same one as addToSet

[17:14:06] <StephenLynx> aah, yeah

[17:14:07] <StephenLynx> :v

[17:14:17] <StephenLynx> >findByIdAndUpdate

[17:14:18] <StephenLynx> what

[17:14:23] <StephenLynx> is that a mongoose thing?

[17:14:26] <Lonesoldier728> yeah

[17:14:29] <StephenLynx> lol

[17:14:36] <StephenLynx> seriously, I suggest stop using it.

[17:14:51] <Lonesoldier728> what would you use in its place or straight mongo

[17:15:09] <StephenLynx> straight mongo.

[17:15:26] <StephenLynx> the official node driver has a pretty good documentation and is supported by 10gen

[17:15:44] <Lonesoldier728> mongoose is also preached by 10gen if I remember correctly

[17:15:52] <StephenLynx> except it sucks.

[17:15:59] <StephenLynx> its about 600% slower.

[17:16:12] <StephenLynx> and shits itself with ids.

[17:16:24] <Lonesoldier728> well it is something that can be dealt with in the future... for now I need to figure out why this is not working : /

[17:16:40] <StephenLynx> mongoose is fucking up.

[17:16:45] <StephenLynx> that is why is not working.

[17:16:48] <StephenLynx> the query seems fine.

[17:17:06] <Lonesoldier728> well let me elaborate the fields maybe I am missing something

[17:17:33] <StephenLynx> but one thing

[17:17:47] <StephenLynx> it seems the block you are using for update its used for projection

[17:17:57] <Lonesoldier728> http://pastebin.com/ASsMcKFx

[17:17:59] <StephenLynx> "BadValue Unsupported projection option"

[17:18:02] <StephenLynx> "projection"

[17:18:21] <greyTEO> StephenLynx, Yea i think the param options are in the wrong order

[17:18:23] <Lonesoldier728> which block? the findByIdAndUpdate

[17:19:56] <StephenLynx> no idea

[17:20:11] <StephenLynx> I have never seen something like that in the regular driver or the terminal.

[17:20:21] <StephenLynx> the projection block usually is passed in the options object.

[17:20:32] <StephenLynx> for a find and modify operation

[17:20:42] <greyTEO> http://mongoosejs.com/docs/api.html#model_Model.findOneAndUpdate

[17:22:39] <kba> if I have a collection with an array in it, how would I find a specific value in the array and remove it?

[17:23:42] <kba> $pull, nvm

[17:25:10] <kba> hm, but that and doing .save isn't atomic in mongoosejs

[17:25:42] <kba> if I do collectionInstance.arr.pull(id); collectionInstace.save(), that won't be atomic, I assume

[17:25:54] <kba> so an id from arr could get pulled twice?

[17:26:49] <StephenLynx> stop using mongoose, kba

[17:26:58] <kba> why, StephenLynx?

[17:27:45] <StephenLynx> because its slow, uses non-standard ways to deal with ids

[17:28:02] <StephenLynx> everyone that comes here with issues using node/io its because its using mongoose.

[17:28:07] <StephenLynx> I am not kidding you

[17:28:08] <kba> do you have any source on it being slow?

[17:28:21] <kba> would pull be atomic withuot mongooes?

[17:28:34] <Lonesoldier728> wow i think you were right mongoose just messed up but i did change from _id: id to just id

[17:28:43] <StephenLynx> http://codeandcodes.com/tag/mongoose-vs-mongodb-native/

[17:29:01] <StephenLynx> mongoose is the single worst ODM out there.

[17:41:13] <kba> is there any other ODM that allows me to define schemas and validation rules?

[17:41:21] <kba> because that's the selling point for me

[17:44:07] <StephenLynx> you might want to use a relational database then.

[17:44:09] <StephenLynx> if that matters so much.

[17:44:19] <StephenLynx> the selling point of mongo is just not having these.

[17:44:47] <StephenLynx> among other things

[17:46:43] <StephenLynx> since mongo doesn't have relational integrity, I cannot see the point of schemas and validation rules.

[17:46:53] <StephenLynx> you just have one big overhead for nothing.

[18:55:29] <shlant> does the root role have all permissions on all db's? I ask because I am using a root user to access my db from my node app, but it seems that some content isn't loading which makes me think it's permissions

[18:56:06] <StephenLynx> afaik the system's users have no relation to the database permissions

[18:56:13] <StephenLynx> ah

[18:56:13] <StephenLynx> wait

[18:56:43] <kba> StephenLynx: the idea is that the schema is more advanced than just tables

[18:57:11] <StephenLynx> kba that makes absolutely no sense.

[18:57:25] <StephenLynx> and shlant sorry, I didn't know there was a role called "root" :v

[18:58:31] <StephenLynx> it doesn't matter how advanced a tool is, if you don't need it, its just a waste of resources.

[18:58:32] <kba> StephenLynx: it makes no sense to have schemas more complicated than rows of data? Yes, sure, it could be done with 5 table instead of one collection.

[18:58:44] <kba> StephenLynx: in that case, anything could be stored with

[18:58:50] <kba> a RDBMS

[18:59:01] <StephenLynx> but

[18:59:07] <StephenLynx> anything can be stored with a relational db.

[18:59:11] <kba> Exactly.

[18:59:14] <kba> That's what I just said

[18:59:18] <StephenLynx> and I just suggested you to use one if you really need schemas.

[18:59:32] <kba> Pretty much everything needs schemas.

[18:59:36] <StephenLynx> no.

[18:59:40] <StephenLynx> that is false.

[18:59:49] <StephenLynx> that is why mongo doesn't enforce schemas.

[18:59:53] <StephenLynx> because sometimes you don't need them.

[19:00:00] <kba> I didn't say always.

[19:00:23] <greyTEO> i think kba wants structure for the data, not a schema?

[19:00:46] <kba> Indeed. Maybe we don't share the same definition of a schema

[19:01:18] <StephenLynx> what keeps him to structure his data?

[19:01:25] <StephenLynx> you don't need a schema for that.

[19:01:33] <StephenLynx> him from*

[19:01:42] <kba> With that logic, you never need a schema.

[19:01:45] <StephenLynx> no

[19:01:49] <StephenLynx> sometimes you need a schema

[19:01:53] <kba> Why?

[19:01:58] <StephenLynx> because you need relational integrity.

[19:02:09] <StephenLynx> that is why relational databases have them.

[19:02:14] <kba> As long as something has an id, you can refer to it

[19:02:27] <StephenLynx> yes, but sometimes you want to be sure the relation is valid.

[19:02:33] <kba> Oh you do, really?

[19:02:41] <kba> And sometimes you want to make sure your data adheres to a structure

[19:02:45] <kba> So that's why I want a schema

[19:02:52] <StephenLynx> so thats why you need a relational database.

[19:02:53] <kba> You don't seem to have a point other than disagreeing with everything I say.

[19:03:10] <kba> So whenever you want to make sure a relation is valid, you also need a relational database with that logic.

[19:03:17] <StephenLynx> yes.

[19:03:36] <StephenLynx> or a database that implements relational integrity at least.

[19:03:37] <kba> So all NoSQL databases with relations are wrong.

[19:03:46] <kba> That's what you're saying

[19:03:48] <StephenLynx> no

[19:03:52] <StephenLynx> stop playing dumb.

[19:03:55] <StephenLynx> what I am saying is

[19:03:56] <kba> You're playing dumb.

[19:04:02] <greyTEO> kba, I would agree to that

[19:04:24] <greyTEO> relation with nosql is wrong. It is supported but frowned upon

[19:04:24] <StephenLynx> when you need relational integrity, you need a database that implements relational integrity.

[19:04:50] <shlant> StephenLynx: http://docs.mongodb.org/manual/reference/built-in-roles/#root

[19:04:53] <StephenLynx> you don't tackle a half-assed abomination that makes the database works against its design

[19:05:11] <kba> Before you said you needed a schema, because sometimes you need relational integrity.

[19:05:19] <StephenLynx> yes.

[19:05:37] <kba> That implies that you can't have good relational integrity without a schema.

[19:05:47] <StephenLynx> yeah.

[19:06:10] <kba> So sine MongoDB doesn't have schemas, the relational integrity is bad.

[19:06:10] <StephenLynx> how is the database going to enforce the relational integrity without a schema?

[19:06:14] <StephenLynx> no

[19:06:21] <kba> Why "no"?

[19:06:26] <StephenLynx> mongo DOESNT HAVE relational integrity.

[19:06:26] <kba> That's exactly what you said.

[19:06:27] <StephenLynx> period.

[19:06:32] <kba> Okay.

[19:06:33] <StephenLynx> is not bad, it isn't there at all.

[19:06:37] <kba> Right.

[19:07:34] <greyTEO> I think orm's introduce this thought to NoSQL dbs

[19:07:52] <kba> They do, by introducing a schema.

[19:08:02] <StephenLynx> odm's

[19:08:03] <greyTEO> they allow you to reference of other documents but you shouldn't be allowed to

[19:08:05] <kba> but StephenLynx argues that since I want my data structured, I should use RDBMS

[19:08:10] <StephenLynx> yes.

[19:08:21] <StephenLynx> if you want to do it right.

[19:08:24] <greyTEO> if you want data integrity then I would suggest the same

[19:08:31] <kba> Can you give me an example application where the data isn't structured, StephenLynx?

[19:08:51] <greyTEO> other wise, embed the entire document rather than reference it.

[19:09:11] <greyTEO> duplicate data(write heavy) is pretty common.

[19:09:12] <StephenLynx> I never advised against structuring your data. I use a structure without a schema.

[19:09:13] <kba> for the most part, I'm fine with the way it works now.

[19:09:25] <StephenLynx> it just isn't validated anywhere.

[19:09:33] <kba> StephenLynx: so you were needlessly pedantic when I said I needed a schema because I needed structure. Got it

[19:09:42] <StephenLynx> let me look for that

[19:09:51] <StephenLynx> I am pretty sure I didn't say that.

[19:10:16] <StephenLynx> "<StephenLynx> what keeps him to structure his data? <StephenLynx> you don't need a schema for that. <StephenLynx> him from*"

[19:10:24] <kba> That was 10 minutes later.

[19:10:25] <StephenLynx> not only but I said exactly the opposite

[19:10:36] <kba> I said I needed a schema, you said I needed a DBMS.

[19:10:44] <StephenLynx> "<StephenLynx> since mongo doesn't have relational integrity, I cannot see the point of schemas and validation rules."

[19:10:47] <StephenLynx> yes.

[19:10:54] <StephenLynx> a schema is not a structure.

[19:10:55] <kba> because we apparently don't share definition of schema

[19:11:02] <kba> in my book, a structure and a schema is pretty much the same

[19:11:12] <StephenLynx> a structure is a convention on how the data is saved.

[19:11:19] <kba> "A database schema (/ˈski.mə/ skee-mə) of a database system is its structure"

[19:11:51] <StephenLynx> a schema is a structure set in stone with constraints that cause errors when you try to input data that does not obey the schema.

[19:12:28] <kba> Indeed. So any MongoDB application that doesn't allow you to insert ANY data into ANY field has a schema?

[19:12:40] <kba> Because if there's validation, it has a schema, according to you

[19:12:44] <StephenLynx> yes.

[19:12:53] <StephenLynx> it is a schema implemented in the application, but its a schema.

[19:12:59] <kba> So 99%+ of application needs schema.

[19:13:02] <StephenLynx> no.

[19:13:13] <StephenLynx> how did you came up with that?

[19:13:16] <kba> So at least 1% of all applications developed has no validation?

[19:13:26] <StephenLynx> where are you pulling these numbers from?

[19:13:41] <kba> Nowhere.

[19:13:42] <StephenLynx> so

[19:13:50] <StephenLynx> they are meaningless and you are just talking bullshit?

[19:13:55] <kba> haha

[19:14:01] <kba> Good counter-argument

[19:14:05] <kba> Please give me the real numbers!

[19:14:16] <StephenLynx> numbers for what?

[19:14:39] <kba> You're ridiculous. You're saying that any application using validation shouldn't use MongoDB, because validation implies a schema, and if you need a schema, you should use an RDBMS.

[19:14:47] <StephenLynx> yes.

[19:14:50] <StephenLynx> pretty much that.

[19:15:13] <kba> Now you're just talking bullshit, then :)

[19:15:16] <StephenLynx> lol

[19:15:43] <StephenLynx> are you considering basic data sanitizing as "validation"?

[19:15:53] <kba> Rejecting input is validation.

[19:16:04] <StephenLynx> basic data sanitizing.

[19:16:13] <kba> You said that if you can get an error while entering data, then it needs a schema

[19:16:21] <kba> "<StephenLynx> since mongo doesn't have relational integrity, I cannot see the point of schemas and validation rules."

[19:16:22] <StephenLynx> an error on the database layer.

[19:16:33] <kba> StephenLynx a schema is a structure set in stone with constraints that cause errors when you try to input data that does not obey the schema.

[19:16:34] <StephenLynx> I was not talking about the application layer.

[19:16:39] <kba> Oh, you forgot that, didn't you?

[19:16:55] <kba> How convenient that you were so ambigiuous

[19:17:01] <cheeser> maybe i should just come back monday. :)

[19:17:12] <StephenLynx> input rejection on the application layer would be done regardless if the database enforces a schema.

[19:17:13] <greyTEO> gets popcorn

[19:17:29] <kba> Why are we talking about "the database enforcing a schema" now?

[19:17:34] <kba> This discussion started with Mongoose

[19:17:37] <kba> Mongoose isn't "the database"

[19:17:42] <kba> Mongoose works in the application layer

[19:17:52] <StephenLynx> no, but acts as the database layer as far as your application is concerned.

[19:18:01] <kba> Haha

[19:18:08] <kba> So having a good abstraction for validation means it's not part of the database?

[19:18:14] <kba> So having a good abstraction for validation means it's now part of the database?

[19:18:16] <kba> NOW*

[19:18:34] <StephenLynx> part of the layer that handles the database.

[19:18:53] <kba> Come again?

[19:19:12] <StephenLynx> the database layer might be more than just the database storing your data.

[19:19:34] <StephenLynx> if you have a middleware that does nothing but work with your database, it is part of the database layer.

[19:19:55] <kba> Must be convenient discussing when you're in charge of what's the right definition all the time.

[19:20:06] <kba> Like the fact that Mongoose is now the database layer.

[19:20:16] <kba> Because then the fact that Mongoose has validation is wrong, apparently.

[19:20:29] <kba> Mongoose also does validation, so it's not part of the database layer, StephenLynx.

[19:20:32] <kba> According to yourself.

[19:20:57] <StephenLynx> it enforces a schema. you will still want to perform input validation regardless.

[19:21:12] <kba> So is Mongoose part of the application or database layer now, StephenLynx?

[19:21:19] <StephenLynx> database layer.

[19:21:23] <kba> But Mongoose has validation.

[19:21:28] <kba> You said "if you have a middleware that does nothing but work with your database, it is part of the database layer.".

[19:21:34] <StephenLynx> no, it enforces a schema.

[19:21:47] <kba> That must imply that if the middleware DOES do more stuff than working with the database, then it is NOT part of the database layer

[19:21:49] <kba> No?

[19:22:09] <StephenLynx> it isn't doing more than just working with the database.

[19:22:17] <kba> It is doing validation.

[19:22:19] <StephenLynx> no

[19:22:23] <kba> It's not?

[19:22:23] <StephenLynx> it is enforcing a schema.

[19:22:26] <StephenLynx> its different.

[19:22:41] <kba> It's funny that the method in Mongoose literally is called "validate" then

[19:22:45] <StephenLynx> it will make sure you input a string, it won't check if the string is valid according to your application logic.

[19:22:50] <kba> It will.

[19:23:01] <kba> Have you used Mongoose, StephenLynx?

[19:23:03] <StephenLynx> no.

[19:23:06] <kba> Wow.

[19:23:11] <kba> So you're talking out of your ass now.

[19:23:15] <StephenLynx> lol

[19:23:15] <kba> Great

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