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[22:55:55] <dstufft> jaraco: ping

[22:56:07] <jaraco> hi dstuff

[22:56:12] <jaraco> *dstufft

[22:56:30] <jaraco> I know I owe you a PR review for setuptools.

[22:56:35] <jaraco> I apologize I haven't gotten to it yet.

[22:56:47] <dstufft> jaraco: no worries :) just checking up on things :)

[22:56:50] <jaraco> Normally a Thanksgiving weekend is the best time for stuff like that.

[22:56:58] <jaraco> But this has been an unusually busy time for me.

[22:56:59] <dstufft> going over my list of things I want to get into pip 6.0

[22:57:04] <dstufft> and PEP 440 is one of em :D

[22:57:21] <jaraco> Thanks for understanding.

[22:59:21] <dstufft> jaraco: fwiw I suspect there's going to be some breakage and fallout from it, not in the parse errors but in differences between how setuptools pre-PEP 440 sorts things and post PEP 440

[22:59:34] <dstufft> but I don't think that's a solvable problem without not implementing PEP 440

[23:00:34] <jaraco> That's fine. We'll announce it well in advance and get some betas out for testing.

[23:00:52] <jaraco> It's a good opportunity to tweet to my dozen or so followers.

[23:00:53] <jaraco> ;)

[23:01:05] <dstufft> jaraco: ha

[23:01:21] <dstufft> jaraco: wonder if we can get @ThePSF to RT it

[23:01:25] <dstufft> or guido

[23:02:06] <jaraco> I imagine between you, me, and our followers, we'll get enough RTs to cover the community.

[23:02:24] <dstufft> works for me :D

[23:03:02] <dstufft> I should probably make a pip pre-release around the same time that includes it too

[23:03:06] <dstufft> so people can test them together

[23:05:00] <dstufft> jaraco: what do you think about an entry point that allows replacing the function that setuptools uses for installing setup_requires stuff?

[23:05:39] <wickman> dstufft: YES

[23:06:03] <dstufft> hrm, not sure an entry point makes sense though :/ entry points are installation global and probably that depends on what tool is actually invoking the setup.py

[23:06:22] <dstufft> maybe a flag to setup.py that provides an import path to one

[23:06:52] <wickman> how is this different than just constructing PYTHONPATH accordingly?

[23:07:50] <dstufft> wickman: what do you mean?

[23:08:24] <dstufft> I mean, when pip invokes setup.py it would be nice for pip to be able to install the things in setup_requires instead of setuptools doing that

[23:08:28] <jaraco> dstufft: that sounds dangerous to me. I think one of the biggest criticisms of setuptools is that it gives too much imperative power to the package author.

[23:08:46] <dstufft> jaraco: this wouldn't be the package author, this would be for pip

[23:10:08] <wickman> dstufft: i'm talking more about setuptools than pip. i'd like to be able to do 'python setup.py bdist_whl' and not have easy_install get invoked.

[23:10:38] <dstufft> jaraco: the problem I'm trying to solve: Right now ``pip install foo`` will use pip to download stuff... except for things in a setup_requires. This is super confusing to people because it means they have to configure both pip and setuptools for things like custom index servers, and some things I'm not sure there are even configurations for (SSL certificates? etc) and differences in like pre-release handling and stuff

[23:10:53] <dstufft> so it would be great if pip can instruct setuptools somehow that it wants to handle setup_requires

[23:11:01] <dstufft> I'm not sure what the best way of doing that is though

[23:11:13] <dstufft> I have an idea that involves monkeypatching setup.py even more and doing more crazy things

[23:11:54] <jaraco> dstufft: I see. There might be a case for providing a hook such that pip can customize the installer.

[23:11:55] <wickman> the only thing i could think of was to monkeypatch a setup.cfg with easy_install options but that doesn't give functional parity with how we do package fetching in pex

[23:12:21] <dstufft> jaraco: my original thought was using a entry point, but thinking about it more I'm not sure hat's right

[23:12:26] <dstufft> because then we'll get the opposite problem

[23:12:51] <dstufft> since entry points are installation global, if you install pip into the installation but invoke easy_install you'll get pip installing the setup_requires

[23:13:06] <jaraco> I'm hesitant with anything around setup_requires. It's already near brittle enough to be unusable.

[23:13:14] <jaraco> Yet still used enough to be essential.

[23:14:02] <dstufft> maybe the answer is something like ``setup.py setup_requires`` which just writes out the whatever is in setup_requires to a file

[23:14:27] <jaraco> dstufft, Do file a ticket, maybe capture some of this discussion. That'll give us a framework for a plan. Setuptools is a community project so let's do what's best for the community.

[23:15:05] <dstufft> jaraco: will do!

[23:30:50] <dstufft> jaraco: https://bitbucket.org/pypa/setuptools/issue/293/make-it-possible-for-pip-to-take-control

[23:31:10] <jaraco> !thanks dstufft

[23:31:10] <pmxbot> you're doing good work, dstufft!