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[02:43:43] <dstufft> msabramo: ``pip install readme>=0.5.1 && python setup.py -r -s`` will check your packages long_description to see if it fails rendering

[02:44:25] <msabramo> dstufft: Oh is that new or just something I missed before?

[02:44:39] <msabramo> oh I guess it's new since you said readme>=0.5.1

[02:45:04] <msabramo> will try that out later but thank you in advance; will be very nice to have that

[03:11:32] <dstufft> msabramo: yea it's new. I realized a little bit ago that a setup.py command would be super easy to do and answers some of the questions like "how do I find the long_description"

[20:32:02] <ErikRose> dstufft: Has something changed about PyPI download counts in the last couple weeks? I notice they're 1/10 of what they used to be.

[20:33:07] <carljm> ErikRose: Haven't you heard? Nobody uses Python anymore.

[20:33:13] <sigmavirus24> ^^ ;)

[20:33:41] <sigmavirus24> Travis' containerized builds now will cache dependencies for you so that could be another cause

[20:33:59] <ErikRose> carljm: Heh. :-)

[20:34:29] <ErikRose> sigmavirus24: An interesting idea. You pretty much have to opt into those. Are they catching on that quickly?

[20:35:05] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: the purported speed benefits are causing a lot of people to try them out. One of the reasons they're faster though is the ability to turn on caching, so maybe?

[20:35:42] <sigmavirus24> It'd be really hard at this point in time to figure out how many people on GitHub are turning it on because I'd basically start collecting data now which is >1 month after the feature was released/announced

[20:36:20] <ErikRose> It would be interesting to get ahold of the logs and see what % a few months ago was from Travis, vs, now.

[20:36:41] <carljm> Hmm, I need to check into that. Last time I committed to one of my OSS projects on Travis, about 1/3 of builds randomly failed with network errors getting the dependencies.

[20:37:56] <ErikRose> That's interesting; I haven't seen that myself.

[20:38:14] <ErikRose> I did a bunch of pyelasticsearch builds yesterday, too.

[20:38:34] <sigmavirus24> I've seen that but it never lasts longer than a day

[20:43:06] <carljm> maybe I just had bad timing.

[20:43:41] <sigmavirus24> carljm: seems to act up every so often

[22:50:16] <dstufft> ErikRose: pip 6.0 caches shit on by default

[22:50:36] <dstufft> I dunno if that'd be 1/10th of what they used to be or not

[22:50:55] <dstufft> but if people's caches are primed now that could be why

[22:51:17] <ErikRose> That strikes me as plausible.

[22:52:21] <dstufft> also pip 6.0.7 which was released on uh, Jan 28th fixed a bug with our on by default cache, previous to that if you used pip in a combination of Python 2, Python 3, and python3.4 you'd get cache evictions

[22:52:49] <ErikRose> Have you seen bandwidth on the CDN drop precipitously?

[22:53:04] <dstufft> (we were using pickle to store the cached items, but we were using the highest pickle protocol available, so pip 3.3 couldn't read a pickle written by Python 3.4, and Python 2.7 couldn't read one written by Python 3 at all

[22:53:18] <dstufft> lemme look

[22:55:49] <dstufft> ErikRose: doesn't appear so, here's daily bandwidth numbers -> http://d.stufft.io/image/3j0w0i2K1E1J

[22:55:58] <dstufft> but it's hard to tell because PyPI's growing in general too

[22:56:45] <ErikRose> Interesting. I forget when I first noticed it. For at least a month or two, my download numbers have been 1/10 of their normal. Maybe my package are all suddenly terrible. :-)

[22:57:29] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: I haven't checked my download numbers in forever

[22:57:38] <sigmavirus24> You're making me glad I don't =P

[22:57:52] <ErikRose> Yeah, I'll probably replace them with some Google alerts or something.

[22:58:22] <sigmavirus24> holy smokes. alpha release of github3.py 1.0 has nearly 2500 downloads

[22:58:28] <sigmavirus24> that's way more than I was expecting

[22:59:21] <sigmavirus24> of course rfc3986 already has over a .25m downloads

[22:59:21] <ErikRose> sigmavirus24: That's funny; I see 4722.

[22:59:31] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: I'm using vanity

[22:59:47] <ErikRose> ah

[22:59:48] <sigmavirus24> What are you looking to check those counts?

[22:59:54] <ErikRose> Just the bottom of the PyPI page

[22:59:58] <sigmavirus24> *looking at

[22:59:59] <sigmavirus24> Ah

[23:00:02] <dstufft> vanity shows comualtive all time per file

[23:00:08] <dstufft> the web interface shows rolling

[23:00:14] <dstufft> both get their data from the same place

[23:00:18] <ErikRose> It's weird that the vanity number would be lower, then.

[23:00:19] <sigmavirus24> well so it's more like 2800 if you count whl and tar.gz together

[23:00:42] <sigmavirus24> I'm not concerned

[23:00:53] <ErikRose> Oh, nm, PyPI's numbers are version-independent.

[23:01:17] <sigmavirus24> I don't know. Should I be this relaxed over download counts?

[23:01:28] <dstufft> I'd rather just get rid of them all together

[23:01:36] <ErikRose> Depends whether popularity is a goal for you

[23:01:39] <dstufft> but people like to watch their internet points go up

[23:01:48] <dstufft> http://d.stufft.io/image/320E192O1V1E is the bandwidth on pypi for the last year

[23:01:49] <ErikRose> I use them to inform where I spend my discretionary time.

[23:01:52] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: I care about making quality software that people love

[23:02:10] <ErikRose> Also, I want to beat termcolor. ;-)

[23:02:10] <sigmavirus24> The emphasis on designing stuff people love

[23:02:15] <sigmavirus24> lolol

[23:02:27] <dstufft> ErikRose: If you send me an email (donald@stufft.io) I can check to make sure our numbers are getting ingested properly

[23:02:34] <dstufft> I can't do it right now

[23:02:37] <sigmavirus24> Download counts are one way of measuring love, but I get a lot of love from people about github3.py so I generally feel good about spending time there

[23:02:39] <dstufft> but an email will remind me

[23:02:49] <ErikRose> dstufft: Sure. Don't spend too much time on it.

[23:03:00] <dstufft> we archive all our logs

[23:03:09] <dstufft> so if it starts failing we can fix it

[23:03:14] <ErikRose> Good call.

[23:03:15] <sigmavirus24> Also, the only reason rfc3986 has over 2x the downloads of github3.py in only 8 months is because openstack uses it

[23:03:32] <ErikRose> It's pretty petty; I shouldn't let it bother me so much.

[23:03:34] <dstufft> we generally don't bother because the rolling counts are empheral

[23:03:49] <dstufft> ErikRose: eh, it's a feature of PyPI and if it's not working it should either be fixed or removed

[23:03:54] <ErikRose> But if there was a reason that suddenly really nobody is using my stuff, I'd like to know.

[23:04:06] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: to each their own. I just feel like if I bothered to put a lot of effort into evangelizing my packages they'd do a lot better.

[23:04:12] <sigmavirus24> Right now I seem to cater to the hipster crow

[23:04:14] <sigmavirus24> *crowd

[23:04:37] <ErikRose> I need to make a real web site.

[23:04:47] <ErikRose> The shoemaker's children have no shoes.

[23:05:18] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: heh

[23:05:29] <sigmavirus24> I just need to blog about my projects more

[23:05:45] <sigmavirus24> My posts are infrequent enough but when I do blog my projects see a huge boost in stars and downloads I've noticed

[23:06:07] <sigmavirus24> It's just the more I blog the more I want to rant about how no one follows RFCs and it's ruining my life that they don't. yadda yadda yadda

[23:07:09] <ErikRose> I was thinking of registering everythingisterrible.com for my rants and keeping my positive stuff on somesystemsgo.com or grinchcentral.com.

[23:10:38] <sigmavirus24> heh

[23:11:24] <sigmavirus24> I need a site that is like "yunofollowrfcs.com" and it's just rageface memes whenever I find a new instance of some developer being lazy and not following a 15 year old RFC

[23:12:13] <ErikRose> I could probably write a whole series of articles titled "I Will Stab ___ In The Face", like http://www.grinchcentral.com/password-rage.

[23:12:30] <sigmavirus24> physical violence is where I draw the line

[23:12:56] <ErikRose> I will stab browser UX in the face, I will stab the cloud in the face...

[23:13:00] <ErikRose> It's a figurative stabbing.

[23:13:18] <ErikRose> I will *definitely* stab home automation in the face.

[23:13:34] <sigmavirus24> heh

[23:13:47] <sigmavirus24> I bet you'd got a lot of traffic if __ = systemd =P

[23:13:56] <ErikRose> That's the spirit.

[23:14:30] <sigmavirus24> Mind you I have no grudges against systemd

[23:14:31] <ErikRose> I'd suspect that was an NSA operation if they didn't already have everything pwned 6 ways from Sunday.

[23:14:38] <sigmavirus24> I'm just saying, that'd be some fantastic clickbait

[23:15:18] <ErikRose> I'm on my way away from Linux. Unsafe language, too much legacy, too much attack surface.

[23:15:28] <dstufft> ErikRose: towards FreeBSD? :V

[23:15:31] <ErikRose> heh

[23:15:35] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: pray tell, what OS are you moving towards?

[23:15:37] <ErikRose> Toward something like MirageOS

[23:15:48] <sigmavirus24> What's that written in?

[23:15:49] <dstufft> I need to blog more :/

[23:15:52] <ErikRose> OCaml

[23:16:00] <dstufft> Luckily caremad.io is perfectly named for me to rant on

[23:16:04] <sigmavirus24> What's OCaml's compiler written in?

[23:16:11] <ErikRose> You take your OS and the apps you want to run, and you compile them together into one "unikernel", which you boot on Xen.

[23:16:17] <ErikRose> Probably also OCaml.

[23:16:47] <ErikRose> So there's nothing running on the box but what you specifically need, and you benefit from OCaml being non-stupid about bounds checking and such.

[23:16:57] <sigmavirus24> (Looks like C to me: https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml)

[23:17:12] <dstufft> do i have to write things in OCaml if I use MirageOS

[23:17:16] <sigmavirus24> :trollface:

[23:17:31] <ErikRose> dstufft: Yes, decidedly.

[23:17:43] <ErikRose> It's not a traditional OS. It's more like a compilation platform.

[23:17:52] <sigmavirus24> Why isn't there Mython (Python implemented in an ML like OCaml)?

[23:18:00] <dstufft> yea I think I'll pass then on writing OCaml ;P

[23:18:11] <sigmavirus24> dstufft: you'd rather write haskell right? RIGHT?! =P

[23:18:13] <ErikRose> OCaml is a very practical language.

[23:18:38] <dstufft> sigmavirus24: heh

[23:18:45] <dstufft> for better or worse I'm deeply ingrained in Python

[23:19:55] <ErikRose> If we could get Python to run on a simple OS, there'd be worse things we could write secure software in.

[23:20:27] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: have you heard the gospel of minix?

[23:20:37] <ErikRose> It's too dynamic to reason about, but at least you can't stomp on RAM.

[23:20:50] <ErikRose> sigmavirus24: I've used Minix, but I'm not sure I've heard the Good News.

[23:20:55] <dstufft> busybox? :V

[23:21:02] <sigmavirus24> ErikRose: no one uses it?

[23:21:05] <ErikRose> Isn't that just a shell on steroids?

[23:21:15] <ErikRose> sigmavirus24: heh. I wrote a file recovery tool for it in college.

[23:21:39] <dstufft> ErikRose: busybox is a stripped down linux thing yea

[23:22:03] <ErikRose> It does nothing for the kernel or userspace in general; it just merges a bunch of common binaries into the shell, IIUC.

[23:22:22] <ErikRose> openssl, glibc--that all stays.

[23:22:55] <dstufft> ErikRose: yes-ish, but the idea is you don't run all the other crap that tends to run on your typical linux system

[23:23:13] <ErikRose> That's a step in the right direction, then.

[23:23:35] <dstufft> it's still a regular linux kernel and what not, but stripped down so you don't have a whole bunch of random services and crap running

[23:23:46] <dstufft> a lot of people are using busy box docker images to get stripped down dockers

[23:24:06] <ErikRose> huh.

[23:25:18] <carljm> ErikRose: If I made discretionary-time decisions based on download counts, I would never work on anything but Django.

[23:25:31] <dstufft> carljm: or pip

[23:25:34] <carljm> (Well, maybe I'd still work on pip. But dstufft does such a better job of that!)

[23:25:39] <dstufft> pip is the best

[23:25:46] <dstufft> or the worst

[23:25:48] <dstufft> not sure which yet

[23:25:49] <dstufft> one of those

[23:25:53] <ErikRose> Can't it be both? :-D

[23:26:04] <dstufft> schroedinger's package manager

[23:26:07] <ErikRose> Pip Is The Standard. All Hail Pip.

[23:26:18] <ErikRose> (shades of ed)

[23:26:45] <dstufft> I don't pay attention to download counts mostly

[23:26:54] <dstufft> I just write whatever I want

[23:26:58] <dstufft> and if people like it, great

[23:26:59] <dstufft> if not

[23:27:00] <dstufft> whatevers

[23:27:23] <dstufft> unfortinately for my mental health it appears I enjoy intractable problems that nobody else wants to touch

[23:27:50] <ErikRose> That's how my mad-scientist project is. I do it for me, but I also harbor the idea that it'll take over the world.

[23:28:09] <ErikRose> As we all know, superior technology always wins in the market.

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#pypa-dev logs for Friday the 13th of February, 2015