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[01:10:26] <njs> dstufft: (never mind btw, I guess I figured it out well enough)

[01:10:40] <dstufft> oh, missed that

[01:11:10] <njs> no worries :-)

[01:12:20] <StevenK> dstufft: Did you get a chance to look at https://github.com/pypa/packaging/pull/63 ?

[01:13:26] <dstufft> I did, I thought I merged it

[01:13:27] <dstufft> guess not

[01:16:03] <StevenK> dstufft: And a release? Sorry, I know it's a terrible pain

[01:20:04] <dstufft> StevenK: done

[01:20:12] <StevenK> dstufft: Thanks!

[01:20:56] <StevenK> I'll update the pip PR for 16.4, rather than fiddle

[01:27:22] <njs> ^^ that's the PR that should fix --verbose output, possible candidate for pip 8.0.3

[12:05:32] <odyssey4me> hi everyone

[12:06:24] <odyssey4me> if we're in a situation where we need to pin pip to a major version (eg: >7,<8) then what companion packages should also be pinned? it seems that setuptools and wheel are closely related and should be on that list

[15:52:12] <tomprince> odyssey4me: Why do you need to pin pip to a major version?

[15:55:35] <odyssey4me> tomprince when pip 8 released and broke the world, we recognised that our stable branch packaging was missing constraints for the pip version which affects the constrained set of packages being built and installed... so constraints were added for pip too

[15:59:04] <tomprince> I'm curious *how* it broke the world.

[16:06:21] <odyssey4me> tomprince it all relates back to https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/3404 / https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/3384

[16:12:45] <tomprince> Looking at those issues, I don't think setuptools or wheel are involved in either of them.

[16:13:58] <odyssey4me> tomprince sure, but that's what precipitated in the pip constraints... now we're working through the fallout of having said constraints :)

[16:14:14] <odyssey4me> Packaging is hard. :)

[16:14:29] <tomprince> Pip doesn't depend on any particular version of setuptools or wheel.

[16:16:39] <odyssey4me> so after quite a bit more discussion, we got back to a problem statement of: 'cffi-1.5.2 built by wheel 0.29.0 is not installable by pip 7.x'

[18:23:15] <sigmavirus24> odyssey4me: so I think the constraint on pip being capped is the wrong thing for our project and I'll discuss that with you elsewhere

[18:23:55] <odyssey4me> sigmavirus24 ok, thanks

[20:15:32] <dstufft> odyssey4me: wheel, pip, and setuptools are not *generally* closely related

[20:16:02] <dstufft> however, the default wheel tag changed in wheel 0.27.0 for some projects (particullary, python 2 projects with compiled code)

[20:16:14] <dstufft> and you need a new enough pip that understands that new tag

[20:17:19] <odyssey4me> dstufft ok, so while it's not desirable to cap pip/wheel in general, if it must be done then that's the cut-off point which enacted the change