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[01:47:18] <travis-ci> pypa/pip#14979 (master - f2fbc7d : Christopher Hunt): The build passed.

[01:47:18] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/ba9218dde74b...f2fbc7da81d3

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[07:55:50] <travis-ci> pypa/pip#14980 (provider-integration - 816b3ef : Tzu-ping Chung): The build is still failing.

[07:55:50] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/e31f2f9eeee4...816b3ef5fd65

[07:55:50] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/pypa/pip/builds/658098484

[10:50:53] <cooperlees> Wow - When did pip and twine start posting in here - Is that recent or am I slow

[11:22:03] <pradyunsg> I think Travis CI fixed their IRC integration recently. XD

[11:23:03] <pradyunsg> We've had these integrations in the config for a while (at least for pip) but it didn't post earlier.

[12:13:40] <toad_polo> Ah, I must have blocked that bot.

[12:14:04] <toad_polo> I'll move further discussions to #pypa

[12:14:49] <toad_polo> It must be annoying to have a conversation when the back scroll is all commit messages and such.

[20:17:59] <sumanah> techalchemy: hey I saw https://github.com/pypa/pipenv/issues/4058#issuecomment-565550646 and also I think you might want to comment on https://github.com/pypa/packaging.python.org/issues/701

[20:18:19] <techalchemy> thanks sumanah yeah i'm very behind on those

[20:18:36] <sumanah> techalchemy: hey so it sounds like people are also asking what they can do to help, if anything

[20:19:26] <techalchemy> sumanah, someone reached out asking if they can help pursue funding last week, I need to follow up with some people about that I think

[20:19:28] <sumanah> techalchemy: my suggestion as a project manager is: giving people _any_ kind of concrete expectations, and/or "here are the steps I need to do", helps people a lot

[20:21:41] <sumanah> techalchemy: what are the specific, concrete steps that need to happen before you can put out a new pipenv release?

[20:21:51] <techalchemy> sumanah, I need to determine what the steps are tbh, I started an internal conversation to see how I can be involved with funding coming to pipenv contributors and what kind of role I am able to play there, but there was no real conclusion...

[20:22:07] <sumanah> techalchemy: remind me, where is "internal"? at your company?

[20:22:19] <techalchemy> canonical

[20:22:23] <sumanah> right.

[20:24:28] <techalchemy> and while a portion of my time is technically allocated to open source, it's a chicken and egg problem right now -- I need to get into a more sustainable situation where I can manage incoming prs and bring more people on board, but doing so requires an upfront investment on my part to 1) cut the current release, and 2) document the existing workflow

[20:24:34] <techalchemy> (and erm, fix it a bit)

[20:24:45] <sumanah> so I'm guessing you need to: 1) finish the drafts of further documentation 2) move from https://pipenv.kennethreitz.org/ back to pipenv.org and change the "maintainers" list to accurately reflect who is actually working on the project 3) get the tests running? 4) package and upload the release?

[20:26:04] <techalchemy> tbh most of the work happens in the ancillary libraries these days because pipenv is a bit of a mess, so a huge amount of effort has gone into those -- and mostly I maintain them which is where my time gets caught up

[20:26:07] <sumanah> techalchemy: if there are people/orgs offering to fund you, and they could conceivably fund someone _else_, a Changeset project manager (probably my associate Greg Hendershott) could step in to help

[20:26:32] <techalchemy> sumanah, the request was just to go request funding from somewhere else :)

[20:26:39] <sumanah> manage the traffic of incoming PRs and contributors, help you prioritize.... ah

[20:27:43] <techalchemy> but yeah I would love to have project management help, it's basically the primary thing that prevents work from moving ahead I'd say... I think the suggestion was to see if the PSF would fund it (but I don't know how realistic that is)

[20:28:18] <sumanah> techalchemy: well if you have 10 min right now, let's start talking about budget to see whether it is realistic

[20:28:26] <techalchemy> sure

[20:29:09] <sumanah> what is the minimum work that is needed to get the next release out? do you need tech writing help? I presume maybe you need bug triage/PR management/contributor management help?

[20:29:47] <sumanah> since you are funded at work to do some FLOSS work I presume you would want to concentrate that time on bug fixing in those ancillary libraries, and release engineering?

[20:30:15] <techalchemy> if you're purely evaluating 'how do we release the code', yeah I might just be the main roadblock?

[20:30:36] <techalchemy> someone to yell at me to stop doing things that are not related to the goal?

[20:30:42] <techalchemy> lol

[20:30:42] <sumanah> let us assume that a successful release -- even as a pre-alpha -- is something that does not instantly break every user's life

[20:31:15] <techalchemy> yeah longer term planning though would require tech writing for sure and onboarding help, god do I struggle with that

[20:31:22] <techalchemy> have you heard me explain something...

[20:31:52] <sumanah> if you JUST want someone to yell at you to stop doing those unrelated things, just for about a month, then that can be cheaper .... would you actually _listen_ to that person?

[20:33:26] <techalchemy> historically speaking, I'd insist I was doing something important briefly but probably reassess, I do know what needs to happen

[20:34:02] <sumanah> :-) ok. So, how frequently do you need those checkins? like, 4 times a day, 5 days a week?

[20:35:52] <techalchemy> hopefully not that much, but I could see a few checkins being helpful especially if we were also onboarding some new people

[20:37:57] <sumanah> techalchemy: ~10 minutes of conversation, via IRC, 4 times a day, 5 days a week, for 3 weeks, is 36 hours of work... depending whom you can hire (there are some people who would do this for like $50/hr but if you want someone who knows enough about Python packaging to argue with you, that'll probably be at least $90/hr)

[20:38:47] <sumanah> 36 * 90 is $3240. So you could ask Canonical whether they would just donate about $3300 to this.

[20:39:38] <sumanah> also techalchemy I should check: are you the maintainer who is mainly working on this release, or are any of your fellow maintainers also doing work towards the release?

[20:40:25] <techalchemy> I haven't actually committed code to pipenv directly in awhile

[20:40:41] <techalchemy> to release the actual code though, I am the only person with access

[20:40:47] <sumanah> what are the ancillary libraries that you need to hack on?

[20:41:08] <techalchemy> requirementslib, pip-shims, vistir, pythonfinder

[20:42:36] <sumanah> techalchemy: and are there any other maintainers working on any of those?

[20:42:47] <techalchemy> no

[20:46:04] <sumanah> techalchemy: are there some checklists of what absolutely NEEDS to be done to each of those 4 libraries before pipenv's next release is good to go?

[20:46:39] <techalchemy> sumanah, i am not that organized a person :| the project manager idea sounds kinda good

[20:47:04] <sumanah> techalchemy: let's start with whichever of those 4 sounds like most of a headache and go there together for a few min?

[20:48:44] <sumanah> techalchemy: yeah, a project manager can help with this sort of list-making .... and anyone can help with a fresh perspective from someone who hasn't been ground down by past problems

[20:49:10] <techalchemy> hmmm that'd be requirementslib, tbh i don't actually know if something is stopping the release there

[20:49:17] <techalchemy> i've been super focused on adding something

[20:49:53] <techalchemy> the issues on these libraries should be pretty up to date in terms of what holds them back from being released, i usually interpret a lack of issues as it's all set

[20:50:07] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok, so, that thing you have been focused on adding. Is it necessary that you add it, before releasing pipenv?

[20:50:39] <techalchemy> ... i mean... I think we all know the answer is no :p

[20:51:44] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok. So for now, let's put that aside and look at another one. What's the next most headache of the 3 remaining?

[20:52:17] <sumanah> I'm guessing it is not https://github.com/sarugaku/vistir since that has zero open issues.

[20:52:51] <techalchemy> pip-shims is actually the biggest headache tbh but I rewrote it when i started at canonical, now it's just failing because something else got moved/updated/whatever

[20:53:09] <techalchemy> I'm pretty sure I need to cut a release of that + pythonfinder + requirementslib

[20:54:19] <sumanah> so let's look at pythonfinder. https://github.com/sarugaku/pythonfinder/issues 5 open issues. Are any of them release blockers?

[20:54:48] <sumanah> techalchemy: (feel free to give @brainwane bug labelling powers for the duration of this conversation and I'll put them back after)

[20:56:52] <techalchemy> oh sure you can have powers on the org it's all packaging stuff

[21:00:36] <techalchemy> ah yeah i was smart, releases are automated for these now

[21:00:59] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok. I am accepting notifications as they arrive

[21:01:22] <techalchemy> github added a lot more granularity to permissions

[21:02:13] <sumanah> cool. so techalchemy let us look at pythonfinder. Which of those 5 issues block pipenv release?

[21:02:55] <techalchemy> uh I think there's a pr to fix at least one of the issues

[21:03:35] <techalchemy> and I think one of the issues might not actually be an issue, pipenv has an old version of pythonfinder that didn't have ASDF discovery

[21:05:03] <sumanah> techalchemy: for the open PR - https://github.com/sarugaku/pythonfinder/pull/81 - whom do you want to ask to review it? Tzu-Ping? jxltom? someone else?

[21:05:09] <techalchemy> of the others, #55 i'm not too sure what to do with, #66 isn't necessarily a blocker although it seems unfortunate, and #67 I'm just ignoring i guess

[21:06:33] <techalchemy> sumanah, I'm assuming nobody will review it, the changes aren't super controversial as it basically takes code it was already using and copies it into the package to avoid a dependency

[21:06:56] <techalchemy> I probably didn't merge it because I was waiting for tests to pass I guess

[21:07:16] <sumanah> techalchemy: for safety's sake I figure you should have waited, yes! So it sounds like you should go ahead and merge.

[21:09:02] <sumanah> #55 - we don't yet know whether it is still reproducible with the most recent release, so I figure you can skip it for now. #66: let's say it's not a blocker. And I think it's ok to skip #67 yeah

[21:10:14] <techalchemy> the one about asdf is fixed in #36 apparently

[21:10:18] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok so it sounds like we are done evaluating pythonfinder, and there are no blockers to pipenv release here. Let's move on to .... pip-shims

[21:10:25] <techalchemy> lol

[21:10:58] <techalchemy> i'm the only person who touches this one

[21:11:00] <sumanah> I presume that your pipenv release will be an alpha pre-release or something anyway so two people's evaluations are good enough for now

[21:11:22] <techalchemy> i was laughing because I just looked at pip-shims and all the failures

[21:12:50] <sumanah> techalchemy: is that https://github.com/sarugaku/pip-shims/issues/23 or should we open a new issue to track fixing these test failures?

[21:13:41] <techalchemy> likely will require new issues, if they weren't constantly moving pip internals there wouldn't need to be a library shimming them :D

[21:13:52] <sumanah> yeahhhh

[21:14:27] <sumanah> well, deliberately doing a thing that you know you are not "supposed" to do is a prescription for continuing churn. but you know that.

[21:15:48] <techalchemy> yeah

[21:16:09] <techalchemy> slightly annoying but so is not having a shared set of tools

[21:16:58] <sumanah> For today: techalchemy can you put a few details or links into https://github.com/sarugaku/pip-shims/issues/58 ?

[21:17:14] <techalchemy> yeah i'll likely track down the current failures and rebuild

[21:17:19] <techalchemy> thank you for the help sumanah

[21:17:38] <techalchemy> The hard part of releasing is patching and updating dependencies but I have a branch with that done actually

[21:19:33] <sumanah> oh cool, which branch?

[21:21:05] <techalchemy> hrm, not sure if I pushed it yet, i'll look

[21:21:25] <sumanah> techalchemy: yeah please push it :-)

[21:21:30] <techalchemy> I think I was trying to update requirementslib like 3 months ago and wound up where we are today :)

[21:24:12] <sumanah> techalchemy: tell me when you've pushed the branch

[21:31:16] <sumanah> hey it seems like it would make sense for pipenv's docs to be at pipenv.pypa.io -- does that make sense to you techalchemy ?

[21:31:38] <techalchemy> that does seem to make sense

[21:31:58] <techalchemy> it would simplify things

[21:31:59] <sumanah> EWDurbin: what would it take to get pipenv.pypa.io going? for the docs. Just like pip.pypa.io/

[21:32:29] <sumanah> techalchemy is one of the Read the Docs maintainers for that project, so he could make that change at https://readthedocs.org/projects/pipenv/

[21:33:04] <EWDurbin> sumanah: i'd have to double check how the current setup for pip is working, but it shouldn't be too bad.

[21:34:28] <EWDurbin> Looks like currently pipenv.readthedocs.io is redirecting to pipenv.kennethreitz.org, is that configured in readthedocs techalchemy ?

[21:36:16] <techalchemy> ah, yes it is

[21:38:52] <EWDurbin> pipenv.pypa.io is now live, when you fix that redirect it'll stop... well redirecting!

[21:40:02] <techalchemy> wow that was fast

[21:41:02] <sumanah> Thanks EWDurbin!

[21:41:15] <sumanah> techalchemy: I bet you can do that change now (and in the Pipenv README as well)

[21:42:58] <techalchemy> sumanah, https://github.com/pypa/pipenv/tree/feature/vendor-update

[21:43:51] <techalchemy> i need to prep for a meeting but seriously, this was super helpful

[21:43:54] <sumanah> thanks techalchemy

[21:44:18] <sumanah> techalchemy: so it sounds like the next thing you need to do is ... well I'll put that in the tracking issue https://github.com/pypa/pipenv/issues/3369

[21:44:18] <techalchemy> thank YOU

[21:44:22] <EWDurbin> techalchemy: let me know when you've unconfigured that redirect and i can purge the CDN cache for pipenv.pypa.io

[21:45:51] <techalchemy> EWDurbin, https always yeah?

[21:45:55] <EWDurbin> yeah

[21:46:09] <techalchemy> it's not set to redirect, it just has the current one set as canonical

[21:46:38] <EWDurbin> dunno what you mean

[21:47:05] <EWDurbin> oh, oh, i get it

[21:49:39] <techalchemy> yeah just on the rtd site

[21:49:53] <techalchemy> i swapped pipenv.pypa.io to the canonical one

[21:51:38] <EWDurbin> great, you should be all set now.

[21:54:50] <pradyunsg> Yay! pipenv stuff is actually moving!

[21:55:15] <pradyunsg> techalchemy: lemme know if you have anything that I can help with.

[21:58:05] <sumanah> pradyunsg: I just posted https://github.com/pypa/pipenv/issues/3369#issuecomment-594875477 .... it sounds like reviewing the outstanding requirementslib and pip-shims issues/PRs would be helpful

[21:59:23] <pradyunsg> sumanah: sounds good.

[22:06:08] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok, I have now updated some things - please edit https://github.com/pypa/pipenv/issues/3369 if any of that checklist is wrong, and please fill in https://github.com/sarugaku/pip-shims/issues/58 with more details on the test failures that need fixing. Also, if you would like, please remove the bug triage powers you gave me (requirementslib, pip-shims, vistir, pythonfinder); I can keep the pipenv ones because I think I may want those to

[22:06:09] <sumanah> help me with pip work

[22:06:14] <sumanah> to help me with pip work

[22:08:10] <pradyunsg> sumanah: IIRC, you should have the pipenv triage bits as a gardener on PyPA.

[22:08:23] <sumanah> pradyunsg: for some reason, I did not have them earlier today. But I do now!

[22:10:15] <pradyunsg> sumanah: Huh! You should though, since you're in the PyPA gardeners team (triage in all pypa/ repos). Do you want those permissions? If yes, I can take a look now.

[22:10:28] <sumanah> pradyunsg: yes, I'd like those permissions, please

[22:10:56] <pradyunsg> Taking a look.

[22:11:05] <travis-ci> pypa/twine#1319 (master - fb03835 : Brian Rutledge): The build passed.

[22:11:05] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/twine/compare/613a6f641fdefb815f6ad9cd20ee98220c5529c5...fb03835ebf124ed2f9a447a5f0bd607c283172fb

[22:11:05] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/pypa/twine/builds/658429261

[22:12:06] <travis-ci> pypa/pip#14989 (master - f2fbc7d : Christopher Hunt): The build passed.

[22:12:06] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/ba9218dde74b02a58e4304c1c374a682eafa5516...f2fbc7da81d3c8a2732d9072219029379ba3bad5

[22:12:06] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/pypa/pip/builds/658418758