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#pypa-dev logs for Monday the 13th of April, 2020
[01:46:33] <sumanah> sangy: Poetry is another Python packaging project; see https://packaging.python.org/key_projects/#poetry for a summary
[14:29:50] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/fc24a178991d...15f8a35e4b61
[14:43:54] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/d49fcab9f43c...92c9f8136a02
[17:42:30] <sumanah> Today I'm going to be suggesting that we close down the pypa-dev mailing list, archive its old posts, and suggest that everyone there move to talking either on Discourse or distutils-sig. I figure I'll wait a month for vetoes/spirited opposition and then proceed
[17:43:45] <sumanah> I of course would like feedback from anyone who thinks they'd be affected, but particularly dstufft and EWDurbin and pradyunsg and jaraco
[17:45:08] <sumanah> EWDurbin: I'm thinking I would try to mess with settings on the Google Group to just archive the group in place: no new messages can be sent, but old ones are up at old URLs
[17:46:12] <sumanah> EWDurbin: have you ever been a part of the archiving of a non-python.org mailing list that was, in some way, affiliated with Python? I may kick around ideas to cross-archive those posts someplace on python.org in case Google Groups dies
[17:46:40] <sumanah> alanbato: yes, at discuss.python.org. I have mentioned it a few times in posts to the pypa-dev and distutils-sig mailing lists; are you subscribed to either of those?
[17:46:46] <EWDurbin> sumanah: i might suggest emailing postmaster@python.org for input if you take that route.
[17:47:54] <sumanah> I've been interested in ending the pypa-dev mailing list for some time. Then, a few days ago, I was explaining to ei8fdb that we have made new communication channels over time but, AFAIK, never shut one down -- and thus, fragmentation
[17:57:05] <alanbato> sumanah: I don't think I am? I did know about the mailing lists, but I guess I never suscribed.
[17:57:49] <sumanah> alanbato: I think you should go ahead and do that - subscribe to distutils-sig (not very high-traffic) and to discuss.python.org's Packaging category. Do you need URLs?
[17:58:39] <sumanah> alanbato: and https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging is the Discourse category on packaging
[17:58:47] <alanbato> sumanah: Thank you! Already created my acc on the Discourse, trying to get notifications on the category
[17:59:21] <sumanah> what packaging stuff are you poking at or working on at the moment - package preview/2-phase upload, right?
[18:28:42] <alanbato> sumanah: Yes, but I would like to gather more feedback/ideas/approval before I start implementing it. I would then develop a proof of concept.
[18:29:12] <sumanah> alanbato: understood! what is your timeline? that is to say, when will you be done with the gathering?
[18:29:20] <alanbato> I also started looking into making notification emails be sent from <project>-noreply@pypi.org or something along those lines
[18:32:21] <alanbato> sumanah: Mmm, I haven't given it a timeline. And I'm not actively reaching out hehe. What do you advise? Should I make a separate thread on Discourse with the proposal?
[18:32:56] <sumanah> alanbato: oh that idea for notification emails sounds good to me! currently what is the From address on them? Just noreply@pypi.org?
[18:34:13] <alanbato> sumanah: Yes. I think that's the default value for all emails sent by pypi, if I'm not mistaken. It's currently an environment variable. The change would require to override that value on project-related emails.
[18:34:23] <sumanah> alanbato: So, in my experience (here and in Wikimedia-world, which are both big shaggy sets of mostly-volunteer open source/culture projects where lots of people care about the same infrastructure but are involved at varying levels):
[18:35:00] <sumanah> if you want feedback because you are about to work on implementing something, you need to give people a "I need your feedback by [date] and then I'll proceed on the basis of what I know" announcement
[18:35:47] <sumanah> alanbato: I think a thread on Discourse is a great idea. And link to the Discourse thread from the GitHub thread, and vice versa, so people can see what's said in each place
[18:36:43] <sumanah> alanbato: given that some people are at busy jobs but approximately no one is on vacation right now, I think that a "please reply by ten days from now" note would work
[18:38:39] <sumanah> alanbato: what are you calling this feature? I know it was originally titled "2 phase upload" but I like "package preview" or "draft uploads" because that is clearer about the benefit provided, not just the mechanism
[18:40:12] <sumanah> actually the more I think about it the more I like the "draft" wording. It is consonant with how other content management systems allow you to write "drafts" that only you can see, that are not fixed, etc.
[18:43:40] <alanbato> sumanah: Good idea. I'll make a thread summarizing the proposal me and @di drafted in the GH Issue and do the cross-linking. As per the naming, I think I relate "draft" to some form of document writing, which by someone's defition it might extend to code too. However, that makes me biased towards Preview.
[18:57:15] <alanbato> Oh, cool! I'd be fun to have a map with pins in all the locations people contribute from. With no identification data, of course.
[18:59:26] <PSFSlack> <di> sumanah: "draft release" is a name that would probably make a lot of sense to the average user
[19:11:47] <sumanah> do you want this feature? and he said yeah. And I asked: what would you expect this to be called? And he said "draft?"
[19:12:31] <sumanah> alanbato: my spouse is a maintainer of a few packages on PyPI so this was somewhat reasonable :-)
[19:12:37] <toad_polo> Draft release, release preview or gated release are all names that would make sense to me.
[19:13:12] <sumanah> "draft release" or "package preview" made sense to him; "two-phase upload" was confusing
[19:13:21] <toad_polo> Gated less so than the others, but in the sense of "Release gated on manual review" I think that would be understandable.
[19:14:32] <sumanah> I am sure that will make sense to a bunch of people, but also there are users who aren't professional programmers and are not very used to that terminology
[19:14:56] <sumanah> ei8fdb: you may have opinions on this (it's late in Europe though so don't feel obliged)
[19:15:39] <sumanah> alanbato: ei8fdb is a user experience researcher who is working on understanding how users interact with pip and Python packaging, what their mental models are, what they call things, etc
[19:16:08] <techalchemy> also not sure if you saw but our pyup.io key was invalidated for whatever reason, I need a gameplan to sort that out going forward
[19:17:30] <sumanah> techalchemy: is now an ok time to get info from you, so I can make an update on the GitHub issue about the pipenv release?
[19:18:52] <techalchemy> at some time in the past there was some agreement that we could just ship an api key for safety and not force everyone to get their own in order to do security checks
[19:28:12] <alanbato> sumanah: Yeah, 'Draft Release' sounds like a good name, and at first glance most if not all people will understand what it entails :) I think it's also important to inform users about the difference between that and the 'Pre-release' we currently have, I think some people might get confused at first.
[19:30:51] <alanbato> sumanah: Does "Feature Proposal for PyPI: Draft Release" sounds like a good name for the thread? I'm not sure if there's already a format for these type of things
[19:32:13] <sumanah> and feel free to @-mention me (I think I am either sumanah or brainwane there) and mention that I'm to blame for any mistake in forum etiquette
[19:32:36] <sumanah> in case anyone is like "this should have gone to x other list that you don't know about" or some other complaint
[21:27:35] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/f458573de61b...3c1cf3e1390f
[21:28:41] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/3c1cf3e1390f...471bc0e2c3fa
[21:48:47] <sumanah> no prob techalchemy - it's going around, a friend of mine had a devil of a time today with his dev environment
[21:49:24] <alanbato> sangy: I study and live in Monterrey, but came back to Sinaloa to stay with family during these times.
[21:50:23] <sumanah> anyway techalchemy: is now an ok time to get info from you, so I can make an update on the GitHub issue about the pipenv release?
[21:50:53] <techalchemy> yeah so i need to figure out a plan for this issue, but actually tests were all passing besides this
[21:52:26] <sumanah> techalchemy: so you need to either get a new pyup API key and get it working, or choose and implement an alternative. right?
[21:52:34] <techalchemy> my tentative plan is to survey licenses of the other options, review what i have in writing from the pyup.io people, and decide whether to reach out to them about unrevoking the existing key or using an alternative exactly
[21:52:58] <techalchemy> my *preference* would be to drop in an alternative that, y'know, doesn't require an api key to query
[21:53:37] <techalchemy> someone filed an issue about it, I think you may have emailed about it even!
[21:56:49] <techalchemy> and i think there was actually an issue tracking the api key permission so i'll see if i can dig that out
[22:14:28] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok, so, I updated the release tracking issue to say: #4188 is breaking existing installations so Dan is focusing on that first
[22:14:39] <sumanah> techalchemy: were you able to find what you have in writing from the pyup.io folks?
[22:17:44] <techalchemy> i did not intend to think about this problem yet so i'd prefer to go back to not thinking about it
[22:19:32] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok, so, what would you like now? survey other options in case you need to switch, or work on other pipenv release stuff?
[22:22:22] <techalchemy> I think i should get a list of the options and how restrictive they are, that way I can make an informed decision about what to do as a stopgap if necessary, that shouldn't take too long (I already opened some tabs)
[22:23:28] <techalchemy> then I want to finalize release documentation and actually read whatever workflows you have / catch up on the emails you sent, prerelease, and see what broke
[22:30:40] <sumanah> techalchemy: do you want that list of options to be private or is it something you could do in public?
[22:31:24] <techalchemy> I can make it public but i'll probably work on it locally just because it'll be faster to use familiar tools
[22:33:08] <sumanah> techalchemy: ok! is that something you'll be working on in the next few hours? and would it be helpful or annoying for me to poke you every once in a while about it?
[22:35:07] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/twine/compare/5482d6877df0cd90545c4708e5abe13b359f8a08...f7402e0d2e1c1e6ecde61dc8bcba515b807a48a0
[22:45:08] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/3c1cf3e1390f9171c15217a42daf9fcc86c0bff6...471bc0e2c3faa271c0185da8a2eddc214954cb47