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[15:48:53] <sumanah> restarted the logging bot

[15:53:49] <travis-ci> pypa/pip#15959 (master - 371d6f5 : Pradyun Gedam): The build passed.

[15:53:49] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/22bd8add9501...371d6f5c6707

[15:53:49] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/pypa/pip/builds/680618376

[16:24:27] <techalchemy> gah even i can't navigate our stupid dos

[16:24:30] <techalchemy> docs

[18:02:29] <sumanah> ok! new pip is out!

[18:03:55] <alanbato> woo!

[18:06:38] <PSFSlack1> <deveshkusingh> yay!

[18:25:27] <sumanah> pradyunsg: mind if I close #7951 (the "let's release 20.1" issue)?

[18:27:21] <techalchemy> omg i hate computers

[18:27:40] <techalchemy> my last failure is jsut because i have 'build' in gitignore

[18:27:50] <sumanah> bleh!

[18:28:35] <sumanah> pradyunsg: I'm gonna close it but you can feel free to edit my comment to link to other announcements

[18:29:12] <toad_polo> I feel bad, I had planned to test that beta since I have a use case for the new "build-in-place" functionality in not one but *two* places.

[18:29:24] <toad_polo> But I didn't end up having time, ah well.

[18:29:52] <sumanah> toad_polo: Thanks for the thought!

[18:30:22] <sumanah> toad_polo: if I had said "we plan on releasing on Apr 28th" more prominently in the beta announcements, would that have helped spur you to test before today?

[18:30:35] <toad_polo> No, it was not a lack of motivation.

[18:30:56] <sumanah> ok (and this query was only to help us get better at good beta announcements)

[18:31:10] <techalchemy> sumanah, I can't thank you enough for your help with everything, btw, I've managed to get a lot of documentation written about the release process as you saw

[18:31:16] <sumanah> :D

[18:31:31] <techalchemy> and i did a first pass @ automating a good chunk of the annoying bits

[18:31:34] <sumanah> Yay!

[18:32:11] <sumanah> techalchemy: I may ask you for an endorsement to stick on my site :-)

[18:32:22] <techalchemy> if we can extract the package finder from pip I can stop vendoring a bunch of things

[18:32:44] <techalchemy> sumanah, glad to give it, maybe you want to wait until we cut a release :p

[18:32:56] <sumanah> yeah -- AFTER you cut the release :-)

[18:34:50] <techalchemy> I wound up consulting the MS style guide a bit for guidance on hyphens and such, their advice is basically to hyphenate rarely

[18:35:40] <techalchemy> "Use a hyphen between a prefix and a stem word: If a confusing word results without the hyphen[...or] If the stem word begins with a capital letter"

[18:57:41] <toad_polo> pradyunsg: pip changed from building in a temporary directory to always building in place?

[18:58:09] <toad_polo> I thought that was an option to specify.

[18:58:38] <toad_polo> This seems like it could cause problems.

[19:02:37] <toad_polo> Maybe enough people are still using `setup.py install` or whatever that it won't cause problems, but it will probably at least mildly interfere wtih my workflow since I'll have to do a lot more `git clean -idx`, and I tend to have some temporary files I don't intend to check in sitting around in my work tree.

[19:03:52] <toad_polo> I'm really quite surprised at the different approaches to breaking changes that the `pip` project seems to exhibit.

[19:04:45] <toad_polo> Like changing the default install location to `--user` and changing the build location seem like they are major, shocking changes, but also nothing is supposed to break during the transition to PEP 517.

[19:06:05] <toad_polo> I guess the difference is that PEP 517 applies to stuff the user can't do anything about (e.g. otherwise working packages already available on PyPI) whereas behavioral changes in `pip` will always be something that hits the end user directly.

[19:26:51] <techalchemy> I was under the impression we were discouraging people from `setup.py install`

[19:26:55] <techalchemy> I have been for a long time now

[20:21:39] <toad_polo> techalchemy: We are.

[20:24:39] <toad_polo> But if most people still hit code paths that build in place mostly because of outdated examples and the use of editable installs, they may have developed directory and build hygiene habits that don't rely on pip's clean build environment behavior.

[20:25:26] <techalchemy> i always install with -e

[20:25:53] <techalchemy> i enjoy not having to rebuild every time i change my code

[20:26:38] <techalchemy> i assume most people who develop anything they also use are in the same boat

[20:30:10] <techalchemy> but you're suggesting that pip 20.1 no longer builds in a clean environment -- does that imply the opposite of what happened ~two years ago when "." was removed from the path during builds? is it present again?

[20:36:17] <toad_polo> No, the two are unrelated and also that's a jumbled interpretation of what happened.

[20:46:17] <techalchemy> toad_polo, I mean, "." was on the path during builds at one point, and then it was no longer on the path during builds, right?

[20:46:30] <techalchemy> I was doing my best not to assign any blame or anything

[20:52:49] <toad_polo> techalchemy: No.

[20:54:15] <techalchemy> toad_polo, maybe I'm confused then, was that not the issue where the new build process was changing directories?

[20:54:31] <toad_polo> It's not quite that simple but it doesn't matter and I don't think it would be worth either of our time to explain it.

[20:54:55] <toad_polo> Regardless, it's unrelated to the thing I'm talking about.

[20:54:59] <techalchemy> ok

[20:55:54] <techalchemy> I am super interested in which piece about that old issue I didn't get, if you know where it's best articulated

[22:42:25] <travis-ci> pypa/twine#1435 (master - da8d62f : Devesh Kumar Singh): The build passed.

[22:42:25] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/twine/compare/e687b48f3d1eff2b422383fce82f3f71f79d8f3b...da8d62f6e8878900267a8499d4e3cfe49ac11002

[22:42:26] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/pypa/twine/builds/680781276

[22:56:46] <travis-ci> pypa/pip#15966 (master - 43426ee : Pradyun Gedam): The build passed.

[22:56:46] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/pypa/pip/compare/4b4b2d4b1f673234a2337d03f66a13a1238a49e3...43426eea344c626153efa46f3a9bc6b62d7e8a69

[22:56:46] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/pypa/pip/builds/680776605