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[02:38:52] <dstufft> tdsmith: you around by any chance?

[04:25:53] <tdsmith> hi dstufft

[04:26:29] <dstufft> tdsmith: oh, I was going to ask if now was an OK time to send a homebrew patch for python / pypy / pypy3, but I decided to just do it anyways

[04:26:42] <tdsmith> wfm, thanks

[04:27:10] <dstufft> https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/pull/35118

[04:27:12] <dstufft> :D

[04:27:59] <dstufft> tdsmith: I don't think I ever paid attention, does updating those values mean people will get a new setuptools/pip etc next time they brew update && brew upgrade, or is that only going to take effect for people actually installing the whole python formula again

[04:28:39] <tdsmith> setuptools goes through version numbers like i go through something i go through a lot of

[04:28:52] <tdsmith> the latter; they'd have to reinstall to see the change

[04:29:36] <tdsmith> you'll see formulas with e.g. "revision 1" in the Formula class body; when that increments homebrew clients see it as a new version and upgrade

[04:30:09] <dstufft> ah

[04:30:10] <dstufft> cool

[04:30:35] <dstufft> tdsmith: heh, most of the post 8.0 setuptools versions were quick releases to fix some specific bug in the new PEP 440 stuff

[04:30:46] <dstufft> I'm pretty sure (knocks on wood) that we got them ironed out now

[04:32:57] <tdsmith> okay, thanks. i might wait a few days after release before pulling pip 6, at least to pypy and pypy3; i'll probably migrate python3 away from ensurepip when that lands, too, with apologies

[04:33:18] <tdsmith> appreciate your ongoing interest in supporting homebrew :)

[04:34:17] <dstufft> tdsmith: no worries :)

[04:34:33] <dstufft> things like homebrew wern't really the target of ensurepip anyways

[04:34:42] <dstufft> if homebrew can use it, great, if not, also great

[04:34:58] <dstufft> the important thing is that people either end up with pip, or with an easy way to get it

[08:51:01] <AlSweigart> So this is a silly question, but I can't find the answer online: what does pip stand for? PIP Installs Packages? PIP Installs Python?

[08:52:24] <asbjornenge> pip installs packages I think...?

[08:52:43] <AlSweigart> Heheh. Does anyone actually know for sure? :)

[08:53:45] <asbjornenge> I'm pretty sure it was in the docs once... But I can't find it now either :-P

[08:54:12] <mgedmin> hmm https://github.com/pypa/pip/commit/97c152c463713bdaa0c1531a910eeae681035489

[08:54:50] <mgedmin> and the very 1st commit in github history: https://github.com/pypa/pip/commit/c2000d7de68ef955a85cf8f5f6e78d4f25c10103

[08:54:56] <mgedmin> no reason given, no links to bugs or anything

[08:55:37] <AlSweigart> description="pip installs packages. Python packages. An easy_install replacement",

[08:55:41] <AlSweigart> Perfect. Thanks!

[08:56:03] <asbjornenge> there you go :-)

[08:57:29] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: do you know if there is a way of having "python setup.py test" clean up after itself? Or atleast control where the eggs go?

[08:57:53] <asbjornenge> Accidentally added a whole bunch of them to git yesterday :-P

[08:58:28] <mgedmin> asbjornenge, yes: don't use setup.py test

[08:58:31] <mgedmin> use something sane like tox

[08:58:42] <asbjornenge> hahaha! ok? tox... I'll look into that :-P

[08:58:47] <mgedmin> also, echo '*.egg' > .gitignore :)

[08:58:52] <mgedmin> tox is *awesome*

[08:59:02] <mgedmin> especially if you want to support multiple python versions (say 2.7 and 3.x)

[08:59:17] <mgedmin> http://tox.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

[08:59:27] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: thanks!

[09:01:13] <asbjornenge> ooohhh!!! THAT is useful :-D

[09:01:46] <asbjornenge> I haven't been doing py for a while so a bit rusty on the tools, but tox is my new best friend I think :-)

[09:02:00] <mgedmin> wait till you learn about detox :)

[09:02:04] <mgedmin> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/detox

[09:03:47] <asbjornenge> hahaha, sweeet :-D

[09:28:37] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: nice! Up and running with tox :rocket:

[09:29:02] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: is there a way to have tox watch for changes? so it will re-run tests of file changes...?

[09:29:14] <asbjornenge> of=on

[09:29:30] <mgedmin> use https://pypi.python.org/pypi/watchdog to run tox?

[09:30:24] <asbjornenge> :-)

[09:32:24] <asbjornenge> Oh, I really like tox though... that fit my problem just right!

[09:37:01] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: seems to me there are lots of great tool for doing modularized python, but it's hard to find a clear path when googling around... seems like the community haven't landed on a clear winner... is that a reasonable thing to say?

[09:38:03] <mgedmin> a clear winner for what problem?

[09:38:21] <mgedmin> also there are many overlapping problems in app development

[09:39:16] <mgedmin> depending on your definition of "modularized python", setuptools + virtualenv (or zc.buildout if you have complex requirements and like pain) seem like the things to use

[09:40:51] <asbjornenge> building complex software by composing small modules is a pattern I like to follow... so I'm talking about getting from a blank folder to an egg that is easy to deploy and test...

[09:41:12] <mgedmin> then there are tools to make life easier, like tox, github, travisci, flake8, make, check-manifest (shameless plug heh), zest.releaser

[09:41:42] <mgedmin> devpi, I suppose, if you need to juggle multiple closed-source packages from a private package index (never used it myself)

[09:42:05] <asbjornenge> sure sure... I'm now using pip and tox and setuptools... it's working great, but took me a while to figure that out.. maybe it's just the pattern that is not common enough in pyland...

[09:42:21] <mgedmin> it's not documented well enough in a central enough location, imho

[09:42:28] <asbjornenge> +1

[09:42:57] <mgedmin> there's an official manual hosted somewhere on python.org but I can't even find it on google

[09:43:15] <mgedmin> people who have learned through experience have all this knowledge in their minds and post random stackoverflow answers and blog posts

[09:43:30] <asbjornenge> yeah, that is not ideal...

[09:43:43] <mgedmin> and also things change all the time (setuptools is dead, use distribute! no, distribute is now merged back into setuptools, use setuptools!)

[09:43:48] <mgedmin> so blog posts bitrot

[09:44:44] <asbjornenge> Usually what I find in other communities is that a few tools "win out" in the different common dev patterns... but yeah, it really helps if people write it down :-P somewhere central!

[09:45:08] <mgedmin> a-ha! python.org/docs links to https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/

[09:46:45] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: you should click that "Edit on github" and add a "Testing tool recommendations" :-P

[09:46:49] <mgedmin> I like how the footnotes are longer than the content on https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/current.html

[09:47:00] <asbjornenge> hahahha, yeah saw that...

[09:47:32] <mgedmin> asbjornenge, do it! nose/py.test/whatever-you-want-really-even-unittest2-has-test-discovery-these-days + tox + detox

[09:48:19] <asbjornenge> had a client just walk in, I'll eat him up and get on it :-)

[10:16:56] <asbjornenge> mgedmin: https://github.com/pypa/python-packaging-user-guide/pull/126

[10:17:03] <asbjornenge> Feel free to update / modify etc.

[10:17:44] <asbjornenge> I left out detox since it's only relevat for 2.6 and 2.7 and hopefully people can find it if they are lead to tox :-)

[10:17:54] <asbjornenge> relevant..

[10:25:45] <mgedmin> hmm "The tutorial aims to cover core packaging tasks and features and does not aim to cover best practices for Python project development as a whole."

[10:25:54] <mgedmin> "For example, it does not provide guidance or recommendations on selecting third-party tools or services such as for documentation, automated testing, continuous integration, etc."

[10:26:24] <mgedmin> ah, "this tutorial" is just a single ReST page

[10:26:34] <asbjornenge> ahh...

[10:26:45] <asbjornenge> oh well... I tried :-P

[10:27:17] <mgedmin> there are other tutorials in the user guide

[10:27:44] <mgedmin> some of them go into testing: https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/development.html#automated-testing-and-continuous-integration

[10:27:55] <mgedmin> haha, tox is in a FIXME comment :)

[10:29:17] <asbjornenge> hahaha, okthen :-P

[13:39:23] <tdsmith> y'all don't recognize a "NameError: name 'sys_platform' is not defined" exception do you?

[13:42:32] <dstufft> not off the top of my head