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[00:08:52] <Arkaine> Hello...?

[00:09:12] <Arkaine> Test

[00:09:41] <Arkaine> No-body...?

[15:59:43] <fladd> hi there

[16:00:23] <fladd> quick question: How is the DESCRIPTION.rst created when building a wheel? It only contains UNKNOWN for me, but I want it to include some useful information

[16:01:01] <fladd> Strangely, I first thought that the field "description" in the setup method would translate to DESCRIPTION.rst, but strangely this translates to "summary"

[16:01:22] <fladd> So, I am really curious how to populate the DESCRIPTION.rst

[16:14:43] <sebboh> Well, nevermind, I figured it out. The default installation location for pip --user is ~/.local.

[16:14:45] <sebboh> Cheers.

[16:36:37] <fladd> How can I install a package A that depends on another package B that needs external downloads? It seems that pip install --allow-external A' does only set allow-external for the package I want to install, but not its dependecies...

[16:36:52] <fladd> Can I somehow set globally to always allow external files also?

[16:37:15] <fladd> I mean, most packages in PyPi rely on that, so that would make sense...

[16:38:54] <dstufft> fladd: very few packages rely on downloading external files

[16:39:04] <dstufft> but you can enable it globally using --allow-all-external

[16:39:06] <fladd> it seems pyopengl does

[16:39:27] <ronny> fladd: by now its fair to say allmost all packages that rely on externals are bad apples

[16:39:33] <fladd> I am trying to get our library into Pypi without much success

[16:40:23] <fladd> I uploaded a wheel file with correct dependencies. I even added a depenecy_url for Pygame (which my library depends on). In theory this should all work fine on Windows. But it does not. And I have no clue why

[16:40:30] <fladd> It cannot download pyopengl

[16:41:07] <fladd> the funny part is, that just 'pip install pyopengl' works just fine!

[16:41:13] <fladd> why does it not work as a dependency then?

[16:41:13] <dstufft> fladd: dependency links are not followed automatically, you need to use --process-dependency-links

[16:41:23] <dstufft> fladd: if ``pip install pyopengl`` works fine then something seems wrong

[16:41:34] <dstufft> fladd: do you have install_requires=["pyopengl"] ?

[16:41:57] <fladd> I have install_requires = ["pygame>=1.9", "pyopengl>3.0"]

[16:43:14] <fladd> yes, apparently something is wrong, but I cannot figure out what

[16:44:11] <dstufft> fladd: is your package up on PyPI?

[16:44:52] <fladd> testpypi, I am using -i https://testpypi.python.org/pypi as argument

[16:45:10] <ronny> wow, the setup.py of pygame iss broken in many horrific ways

[16:45:27] <dstufft> fladd: what's the name?

[16:45:31] <dstufft> oh!

[16:45:35] <fladd> yes, possibly, that is partly why I use depencey links for pygame

[16:45:41] <fladd> expyriment

[16:45:41] <dstufft> fladd: if you're using -i, that replaces the defalt index

[16:45:52] <dstufft> so it's going to look _on test pypi_ for pyopengl

[16:46:21] <fladd> ah, I understand. How can I make it look on PyPi?

[16:47:34] <dstufft> fladd: you can have ti add testpypi as an _additional_ index instead of replacing the default by using --extra-index-url https://testpypi.python.org/simple/ instead

[16:48:07] <fladd> okay, I will try that. what is the /simple/ part?

[16:49:45] <dstufft> fladd: it's the simple API, it's better to use that than /pypi/ for pip because it's got less stuffon it

[16:49:52] <dstufft> like images and extra text and things

[16:50:15] <fladd> I see, thanks

[16:50:25] <fladd> python

[16:51:22] <ronny> dstufft: i suppose distlib is the must use when making metadata?

[16:52:48] <dstufft> ronny: eh, distlib is a thing, and it does some things. I'm not a huge fan of it and I'd like to replace it in pip eventually.

[16:54:37] <ronny> dstufft: i suppose it hasa bad timeline, then i'll use own code in gumby elf, perhaps it could be extracted later

[16:55:47] <ronny> dstufft: are there any rough plans

[16:56:25] <dstufft> ronny: "I want to replace it eventually" is about as far as I've gone in thinking about a replacement

[16:56:40] <dstufft> too many plates spinning to add another one atm :)

[16:58:22] <ronny> dstufft: i see

[16:58:31] <ronny> dstufft: so if i make one by accident it might be welcome?

[16:58:44] <ronny> i need time

[16:58:50] <ronny> like a big box with some years in it

[16:58:53] <dstufft> ronny: yes

[17:02:34] <ronny> dstufft: did anything wrt generic build systems happen in pip?

[17:02:50] <dstufft> ronny: not yet

[17:04:24] <ronny> hmk

[17:04:59] <ronny> ill try to get a working prototype of gumby elf making sdists wheels and uploads by the weekend, metatata is currently a mess

[17:22:05] <fladd> Huh? I jus got a warning that dependency-links has been depricated and will be removed in 1.6!!!???!!!

[17:22:13] <fladd> What is the replacement for this feature?

[17:23:17] <fladd> What is the replacement for this feature?

[17:26:16] <ronny> fladd: custom indexes and local cersionsupport mostly

[17:26:19] <ronny> *version

[17:26:34] <ronny> fladd: dependency links generate mny security and reliability issues ^^

[17:26:55] <fladd> but they are the only way to install pygame and numpy on windows at the moment!

[17:27:01] <fladd> with pip that is

[17:27:40] <fladd> i mean, there are already a lot of important packages not available in pip, but removing a way to install them anyway, doesn't make it any better for the users...

[17:27:47] <ronny> fladd: pygame hasnt seen a release in 6 years

[17:28:07] <fladd> exactly, but a lot of people want to use that 6 year old release

[17:28:24] <fladd> they can if i provide pip with the links

[17:28:53] <fladd> if this will be removed, then people are forced to fall back to exe installers for packages again...

[17:29:02] <fladd> and that is a mess

[17:30:27] <fladd> ronny, what do you mean with 'custom indexes'?

[17:30:35] <dstufft> wat

[17:30:41] <dstufft> numpy is installable on windows

[17:30:44] <dstufft> dunno about pygame

[17:35:17] <fladd> is find--links a replacement for dependency-links?

[17:38:13] <Wooble> fork pygame and put wheels on pypi, problem solved?

[17:38:55] <Wooble> (also if you could fork lxml and do the same and save me the trouble, that would be great ;) )

[17:39:05] <dstufft> fladd: it depends, find-links can be used for much the same purposes as dependendcy-links, with one key difference -> the person doing the installing has to use them not the packages

[17:39:25] <dstufft> the deprecation of dependency links is moving to a model where end users know what sites they are downloading files from

[17:39:56] <fladd> well, then I could also tell my users to just add --extra-index-url https://testpypi.python.org/pypi/pygame/

[17:40:07] <fladd> that would let them install pygame

[17:40:15] <fladd> on windonws, on osx this still does not work...

[17:40:53] <fladd> on linux, pip is irrelevant, due to proper package management from the distributions

[17:42:31] <dstufft> I'm not sure that pip is irrelvant on linux, given that linux is by far the OS that is being used todownload from PyPI the most :)

[17:43:10] <fladd> for me pip is a way to install a package with one command, while depencies are taken care of in the background.

[17:43:19] <fladd> on debian, apt-get does that for me

[17:43:37] <fladd> there are also even less binary packages for linux on pip then they are for windows and osx

[17:43:44] <fladd> while they are in the debian repositories

[17:43:51] <fladd> or any other distros repositories

[17:44:43] <ronny> fladd: that woulnt e the ase if gnu hadnt invented symbol versioning in addition to sonames

[17:46:01] <fladd> maybe

[17:47:30] <ronny> but then things still would break

[17:47:49] <Wooble> dstufft: does that include downloads that are just automated?

[17:48:13] <dstufft> Wooble: "just automated" ? It includes all downlaods made with pip

[17:48:27] <Wooble> so they could all just be coming from travis :)

[17:49:48] <Wooble> (not that sane people on linux wouldn't be using pip in a virtualenv instead of installing their apps' dependencies with the system packages)

[17:50:02] <dstufft> https://i.imgur.com/MAIV1Bk.png blue is unknown

[17:51:49] <fladd> another question: how can I prevent PIP to try to build from source? This doesn't make sense under windows. Especially not when a binary is available

[17:54:20] <Wooble> fladd: it only does that if it doesn't know the binary is "available". You need wheels.

[17:56:06] <fladd> didn't someone just mention that numpy is installable in windows via pip? For me, it just tries to compile its code

[17:56:09] <fladd> pip install numpy

[17:56:12] <fladd> doesn't work

[17:57:14] <fladd> adding --process-dependency-links also doesn't work, because PIP gives the source an advantage over the wheel it finds in my dependency link. so, how can I disable using the source in general?

[17:58:14] <fladd> dstufft, can you elaborate, how numpy is installable on windows with pip?

[17:59:59] <dstufft> fladd: I think we have different defintiions of installable --, if it's downloading and canc ompile it's isntallable. You don't have all the dependencies installed to install it maybe, but it's still installable. However pip shouldn't give any advantage to the source, the sort algorithm is -> Pick the highest version, then pick a wheel, then pick a sdist, then go by order we found them in

[18:00:51] <fladd> dstufft, have you ever used windows? have you ever met an average windows user? do you see them compiling stuff on windows?

[18:00:54] <fladd> :-)

[18:01:14] <dstufft> fladd: so go poke the numpy devs to ask them to release wheels :D

[18:03:02] <fladd> the point is, there ARE wheel!!! they are just listed somewhere else! So why not make use of stuff that is already there? The problem here is that not everyone can contribute to PIP. To get numpy on PIP, the numpy people have to put it on there, even if other people have perfectly working numpy wheels, they cannot put them on PIP, such that they can be downloaded...

[18:04:33] <ronny> fladd: well, problem is trust, if people are trusted enough to make a "official wheel" they can just put that on pypi

[18:04:43] <ronny> fladd: or do you want random peopel to manage it instead

[18:04:56] <ronny> (perhaps adding a few viruses whle they provide things

[18:06:35] <fladd> no, I don't want random people to add stuff to the official numpy pypi page. But I do want to have the choice to trust other people in general, and put them into my setup script...but this is now being removed aparently...so I am left with not being able to provide a way to install my library in pip. because now i am entirely dependent on the maintainers of the libraries my library requires. I cannot even hack around it anymore. I just cannot use pip, which I

[18:06:35] <fladd> think is an absolute pity!

[18:08:49] <fladd> but it turns out that dependency links doesn't work anyway, because at any point in time, PIP might find a newer version as source in the official pypi and there is no way for me to force PIP to use the binary I specified for one of my dependencies...

[18:10:30] <fladd> this is all avery frustrating experience...I will just stick to exe intallers...

[18:10:45] <fladd> but thanks for trying to help and for the discussion. This is very appreciated!

[18:36:59] <dstufft> fladd: I believe pip 7.0 (the in development pip) has a flag for end users to say they only want binary installations not source installations

[18:37:40] <fladd> dstufft, that is good to know for the future

[18:39:20] <dstufft> yea, --only-binary :all: (or --only-binary numpy,foo,bar)

[23:04:47] <wt> I am using python 2.7. Should I expect the following to install the pyformance extra? pip install -e git+git://github.com/signalfx/signalfx-python@make_pyformance_optional#egg=signalfx[pyformance]

[23:05:20] <wt> The "[pyformance]" part of the string seems to be ignored.

[23:05:41] <wt> Am I specifying it in the wrong way?

[23:28:43] <dstufft> wt: ym

[23:28:48] <dstufft> wwtum*

[23:28:50] <dstufft> blahj

[23:28:52] <dstufft> ladsaokdaklasj;fdsakfdd

[23:28:59] <dstufft> wt: I think that's right yes

[23:40:30] <wt> dstufft, thanks

[23:41:05] <wt> so, does the mean that pip just doesn't support installing extras from git sources?

[23:42:31] <wt> dstufft, what is ym?

[23:42:36] <dstufft> it should, i'm eating right this moment but I can take a look in a bit

[23:42:41] <dstufft> wt: me typing like an idiot

[23:43:09] <wt> lol